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You asked recently why I thought you did better in O8 tourns than cash games. The HH below illustrates one reason. In cash games if you drive 1-way hands this hard you're gonna get into trouble.
PokerStars Game #30923878716: Omaha Hi/Lo Limit ($2/$4) - 2009/07/27 0:53:40 ET
Table 'Osiris II' 10-max Seat #4 is the button
Seat 1: voices_Shh ($80 in chips)
Seat 2: LorraineLove ($78 in chips)
Seat 3: AAeddieAA ($62 in chips)
Seat 4: paukman_69 ($54 in chips)
Seat 5: ShakAttack-3 ($13 in chips)
Seat 6: jobhoti ($86 in chips)
Seat 7: therabbi3333 ($34.50 in chips)
Seat 8: Yahoogie ($43.50 in chips)
Seat 9: benjie827 ($45.50 in chips)
Seat 10: shaloomb ($55 in chips)
ShakAttack-3: posts small blind $1
jobhoti: posts big blind $2
shaloomb: posts big blind $2
voices_Shh: posts big blind $2
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to LorraineLove [2d 3s 5d Ac]
therabbi3333: folds
Yahoogie: calls $2
benjie827: folds
shaloomb: checks
voices_Shh: checks
LorraineLove: calls $2
AAeddieAA: calls $2
paukman_69: raises $2 to $4
ShakAttack-3: folds
jobhoti: folds
Yahoogie: calls $2
shaloomb: calls $2
voices_Shh: calls $2
LorraineLove: calls $2
AAeddieAA: calls $2
*** FLOP *** [2c 8s 4d]
Yahoogie: checks
shaloomb: folds
ShakAttack-3 leaves the table
voices_Shh: bets $2
LorraineLove: calls $2
AAeddieAA: calls $2
paukman_69: raises $2 to $4
Yahoogie: calls $4
voices_Shh: raises $2 to $6
LorraineLove: calls $4
AAeddieAA: calls $4
paukman_69: calls $2
Yahoogie: calls $2
*** TURN *** [2c 8s 4d] [Jh]
Yahoogie: checks
voices_Shh: bets $4
LorraineLove: calls $4
AAeddieAA: calls $4
paukman_69: calls $4
Yahoogie: calls $4
*** RIVER *** [2c 8s 4d Jh] [9c]
Yahoogie: checks
voices_Shh: bets $4
LorraineLove: calls $4
AAeddieAA: calls $4
paukman_69: calls $4
Yahoogie: folds
*** SHOW DOWN ***
voices_Shh: shows [7s 4h Kh 4c] (HI: three of a kind, Fours)
LorraineLove: shows [2d 3s 5d Ac] (HI: a pair of Deuces; LO: 8,4,3,2,A)
AAeddieAA: shows [Ah 3d 8d 6s] (HI: a pair of Eights; LO: 8,4,3,2,A)
paukman_69: mucks hand
voices_Shh collected $45 from pot
LorraineLove collected $22.50 from pot
AAeddieAA collected $22.50 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $93 | Rake $3
Board [2c 8s 4d Jh 9c]
Seat 1: voices_Shh showed [7s 4h Kh 4c] and won ($45) with HI: three of a kind, Fours
Seat 2: LorraineLove showed [2d 3s 5d Ac] and won ($22.50) with HI: a pair of Deuces; LO: 8,4,3,2,A
Seat 3: AAeddieAA showed [Ah 3d 8d 6s] and won ($22.50) with HI: a pair of Eights; LO: 8,4,3,2,A
Seat 4: paukman_69 (button) mucked [8h 2s As Ks]
Seat 5: ShakAttack-3 (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 6: jobhoti (big blind) folded before Flop
Seat 7: therabbi3333 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 8: Yahoogie folded on the River
Seat 9: benjie827 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 10: shaloomb folded on the Flop
I assume your talking about the 3 bet on flop. I argued with myself at the time of the hand whether it was right to just call there or 3x bet
*** FLOP *** [2c 8s 4d]
(Jh)and ( 9c) Turn and River
This just happened to by first hand in the cash game. I brung in for $2 and flop a set with no straights out there and no flush draw. when the 2 bet came in, I argued whether it was right to just call, or should I 3 bet it since only hand I currently lose to is trip 8's. I also wanted to thin the field,,I believe there was still 3-4 players still in pot and I hoped a 3 bet would thin the field.
The turn gave no flush draws and still no straight draws, so unless someone had a set of eights or set of jacks, I should be good. At this point I was also putting the remaining players on lows.
Im guessing the correct way would be to just call the 2x bet. Do you agree with betting the turn and river?
Im assuming the one way hand refers to just having the high and no low draw too. yes, Dangerous. But after Turn fealt very good about hand.
I wouldnt have normally played my hand, but it I had just sat down and the BB was far away, so I came in. I won one more hand not to long later and got up to 120 from 80, or so ran off like a chicken. I was there less then 10 min I think
I also told myself" if I lost over $20, I was going to leave that table. " I knew I really couldnt afford to play it, but I wanted to play with you,,haha. MY rule is not to take over 10 of Roll to table. Yesterday was way over 10%. Sometimes I need to practice what I preach.
On another note, I normally keep my roll aboud $200 and when I get to $500, I withdraw. When you and Marky were helping me, I was around 350 or so...Then all hell broke lose and I was broke(playing omaha). or very close to it if I recall. Since I have never rebought here, It was driving me nuts. Seems everytime I play cash, I never have enough to cover the swings. I end up grinding away at sng and privates to get my money back up.
Much to learn I have
Nah the situation is far worse than that. Bottom set with no low draw is trash in O8. You're playing for half the pot and getting freerolled by lows. And you may be dead to bigger sets. Now you have a good news bad news situation in the sense that the pot has been inflated pre so if you win the high you're gonna show a nice profit, but the bad news is this also means you're in a multiway pot. And as you correctly say you're likely up against lows - which means someone (like me) is bound to have a wheel wrap against which you're a dog. I check-fold the flop in your spot.
I just ran some numbers to emphasize the point.
First issue: you know I think for sure here that someone is gonna stick around and take the low. By playing aggressively one danger is that you thin the field to you and one low hand in which case every dollar you put in the pot you will get back with no additional profit PROVIDED the low doesn't make a wheel. If it does every bet obviously goes down the loo. Now in fact you have a potentially profitable situation - and this is how it pans out - cos 2 low hands stay in and both miss wheels. But let's ask what kind of equity you need in your hand on the flop to play it. Again assuming someone has a low (which on that board with that action is pure I think) you know that the maximum equity (as I'm using the term) is 50% - you can at best win half and sometimes you're going to lose the high half by the river.That's not a disaster since there is dead money in the pot from the pre-flop action, but equally you don't want to play the hand if your equity is well below 50%. Well you don't know wot everyone else has, but we can calculate your equity on the flop versus the two hands that got to showdown. And it's a rather disturbing 28%.
Bottom line is that many people who play O8 regularly would check-fold top set on that flop. Bottom set goes in the muck in a NY minute.
Why does this kill you in cash games and not so much in tourneys? Well... In the above hand you're revealing a tendency to play LO8 as if it was LHE. Blaze away, thin the field, apply maximum pressure when you have something. Problem is LO8 is a very passive game, particularly pre-flop (or should be IMO). E.g., full ring LHE cash I play VPIP/PFR about 15/11. LO8 it's about 18/4. In a cash game when people can afford to sit around and wait, good players will do exactly that against you. In a tourney one cannot hang around cos the blinds keep going up, plus people tend to play tighter anyway, so your wham-bam-thank-you-ma'am approach is going to... well I hate to say "work" cos it's still overplaying IMO but it's not gonna crush you like it will in cash games.
Incidentally I know you've talked to Marky about O8 - be aware that your convos and railing were mostly about tourneys and also that the guy is a spooky good O8 flop player so he can take liberties that mere mortals - including Jedi Masters - can not.
Hope that helps - Kat
Nah the situation is far worse than that. Bottom set with no low draw is trash in O8. You're playing for half the pot and getting freerolled by lows. And you may be dead to bigger sets. Now you have a good news bad news situation in the sense that the pot has been inflated pre so if you win the high you're gonna show a nice profit, but the bad news is this also means you're in a multiway pot. And as you correctly say you're likely up against lows - which means someone (like me) is bound to have a wheel wrap against which you're a dog. I check-fold the flop in your spot.
I really need shoudl check fold the flop? with no flush draw and only wheel draws? Have a ahrd time folding mid set here with only the straight draw as a conncern. Trying to understadn better the check fold in this situation
I just ran some numbers to emphasize the point.
First issue: you know I think for sure here that someone is gonna stick around and take the low. By playing aggressively one danger is that you thin the field to you and one low hand in which case every dollar you put in the pot you will get back with no additional profit PROVIDED the low doesn't make a wheel. If it does every bet obviously goes down the loo. Now in fact you have a potentially profitable situation - and this is how it pans out - cos 2 low hands stay in and both miss wheels. But let's ask what kind of equity you need in your hand on the flop to play it. Again assuming someone has a low (which on that board with that action is pure I think) you know that the maximum equity (as I'm using the term) is 50% - you can at best win half and sometimes you're going to lose the high half by the river.That's not a disaster since there is dead money in the pot from the pre-flop action, but equally you don't want to play the hand if your equity is well below 50%. Well you don't know wot everyone else has, but we can calculate your equity on the flop versus the two hands that got to showdown. And it's a rather disturbing 28%.
Bottom line is that many people who play O8 regularly would check-fold top set on that flop. Bottom set goes in the muck in a NY minute.
Why does this kill you in cash games and not so much in tourneys? Well... In the above hand you're revealing a tendency to play LO8 as if it was LHE. Blaze away, thin the field, apply maximum pressure when you have something. Problem is LO8 is a very passive game, particularly pre-flop (or should be IMO). E.g., full ring LHE cash I play VPIP/PFR about 15/11. LO8 it's about 18/4. In a cash game when people can afford to sit around and wait, good players will do exactly that against you. In a tourney one cannot hang around cos the blinds keep going up, plus people tend to play tighter anyway, so your wham-bam-thank-you-ma'am approach is going to... well I hate to say "work" cos it's still overplaying IMO but it's not gonna crush you like it will in cash games.
Incidentally I know you've talked to Marky about O8 - be aware that your convos and railing were mostly about tourneys and also that the guy is a spooky good O8 flop player so he can take liberties that mere mortals - including Jedi Masters - can not.
Hope that helps - Kat This last part was hilarious to me
This is why I think Kat is a great asset to this forum, The break down and explanations are great. Now can you break down the highlighted area in a way Yoda can understand.
The fundamental reason to check-fold is that a baby middle set is a very weak hand particularly in the face of any action. It's 6 players to the flop. Each player has six 2-hand combos. This overstates it slightly, but this means that in principle it's like playing a flop in hold 'em against 30 opponents. Add to that it's a split-pot game a small middle set simply isn't playable.
You say you'd have a hard time folding with only the straight draw as a concern. Well... let's throw out the possibility anyone has 88 (which is ok I guess)... you have overpairs to worry about too, but again that's not a huge risk. You're biggest problem is a 248 flop when the flop action tells you there is at least one A3 hand out there. People play low cards in O8. On a 248 flop you're obviously terrified of the 5 coming off, but look at all the other cards that are scarey (and would basically force you to fold). Anything A thru 7 with the exception of the case 4 will, 95% of the time in a multiway pot, beat you. And even if those cards don't leave you beat you're gonna have to fold the turn or river anyway if they come off. (Conceivably you may have a crying call on the river with that sized pot.)
I know some people who will take the approach that if they have a high hand on a 3-lo flop it's an instafold to any action unless it's a monster.
To put it yet another way, the nuts will usually win. Here you got lucky and faded half the deck twice.
I'm not sure if that clarifies it. As you know I'm a math guy and when I see 28% equity 3-handed it tells me I need to get out.
You mean VPIP/PFR? VPIP is the % of times you voluntarily put money in the pot pre-flop so it's a measure of how many hands you play (so how tight); PFR is pre-flop raise % and measure your aggression. My O8 (PL and limit) run around 18/4; yours the last time I noticed them were 42/20.
As to the bit in green... Marky can play looser pre-flop than I can because he plays the flop better than me. We were discussing a hand the other day that pertains to how good he is and also the hand that started this thread.
This was PLO8 so you have to play a bit tighter. I don't remember the specific suits now but I know the flop was 2-suited so it went something like this.
Marky had AA2K rainbow. The flop came Ah 6h 7s (or equivalent). Flop was 3-way and Marky was first to act. And he check-folded to a pot-bet from the player last to act. And was 100% correct to do so with top set.
You mean VPIP/PFR? VPIP is the % of times you voluntarily put money in the pot pre-flop so it's a measure of how many hands you play (so how tight); PFR is pre-flop raise % and measure your aggression. My O8 (PL and limit) run around 18/4; yours the last time I noticed them were 42/20.
As to the bit in green... Marky can play looser pre-flop than I can because he plays the flop better than me. We were discussing a hand the other day that pertains to how good he is and also the hand that started this thread.
This was PLO8 so you have to play a bit tighter. I don't remember the specific suits now but I know the flop was 2-suited so it went something like this.
Marky had AA2K rainbow. The flop came Ah 6h 7s (or equivalent). Flop was 3-way and Marky was first to act. And he check-folded to a pot-bet from the player last to act. And was 100% correct to do so with top set.
so basically vpip means what % of time i limp into a pot. and pfr means how often I raise. the 42 seems high to me, but i do tend to play some hands early to take advantage of those who do not understand the game.(Heck,, im still learning myself) Im kinda shocked to hear i raise 20% of the time in Omaha. usually play defensive and dont open raise till late in a tourney.
Tha hand shocks me with Marky. He is dead to the low, but im sure would have the best high hand at this pouint.
Im guessing siince he only had the high and lots of ways to get a low straight, that he folds it here. I really want to understand this better with the math. Im actually a math guy, but really dont know how to run the numbers on this. I really need to understand this better and knowing how to run the numbers would help me.
BTW what program are you using to know your VPIP and PPR information?
Would be helpful for this young Jedi Master
once again , thanks for the input, I really love to learn from hands and conversations like this.
The basic point illustrated by Marky's hand is that the purpose of O8 to scoop and to play unidirectional is the quickest way to go bust. This is particularly true in PLO8 because most of the money goes into the pot after the flop. So if you get HU, which is also common, all you can do with a 1-way hand is split the small amount of $$$ that went in pre-flop.
Regarding the s/w I use, currently it's PokerTracker-Omaha with PokerAce-HUD. And FYI I don't track forum games usually but I'm often playing cash games at the same time and so the data get grabbed.
The basic point illustrated by Marky's hand is that the purpose of O8 to scoop and to play unidirectional is the quickest way to go bust. This is particularly true in PLO8 because most of the money goes into the pot after the flop. So if you get HU, which is also common, all you can do with a 1-way hand is split the small amount of $$$ that went in pre-flop.
Regarding the s/w I use, currently it's PokerTracker-Omaha with PokerAce-HUD. And FYI I don't track forum games usually but I'm often playing cash games at the same time and so the data get grabbed.
That must come in handy in cash games. I would guess that the numbers get messed up more in a tourney due to players getting knocked out and playing short h handed. what does it cost?
Adaon
07-28-2009, 08:23 AM
PS Yoda, don't forget on a paired board there will be a full house a very high % of the time in Omaha. So trips doesn't look very compelling to me ever. And in Hi/lo the most likely holding of anyone else you are playing against is Ace-baby, you could be dead to a full house, or they are freerolling on you.
I think PTO is $80. The main rival is Hold 'em manager that has am omaha extension. Both have free trials I think.
You're right Yoda that these tools are more useful for cash games. In tourns the issue isn't so much the portion of play that is short-handed as the fact good players change their VPIP/PFR as their M declines.
I think PTO is $80. The main rival is Hold 'em manager that has am omaha extension. Both have free trials I think.
You're right Yoda that these tools are more useful for cash games. In tourns the issue isn't so much the portion of play that is short-handed as the fact good players change their VPIP/PFR as their M declines.
one time price or yearly?
One time price plus free upgrades and decent support
One time price plus free upgrades and decent support
Ill Assume that this would only be useful if I was strictly acash player?Currently, less then 10% of my time is used in cash, and the variances kill me. What do you think?
To some extent it depends how much you like to dig through statistics on your own game. The amount of information this s/w gathers and processes is remarkable. One of its biggest uses is analyzing leaks in how you play. In terms of getting a feel for opponents - in tournaments I'll often not use it since it interferes with my reads and ability to pick up timing tells. Also I usually only play a couple of O8 tourns at a time whereas when I play cash games I usually 4-table. If you're going to multitable regularly I think you need it, if not it's less useful.
To some extent it depends how much you like to dig through statistics on your own game. The amount of information this s/w gathers and processes is remarkable. One of its biggest uses is analyzing leaks in how you play. In terms of getting a feel for opponents - in tournaments I'll often not use it since it interferes with my reads and ability to pick up timing tells. Also I usually only play a couple of O8 tourns at a time whereas when I play cash games I usually 4-table. If you're going to multitable regularly I think you need it, if not it's less useful.
when mt 4 tables in cash,,,would thiink u have less time to look at stats and even less time to make reads, thus basically just playing your cards. Am I off here?
Which is why I use a HUD to overlay the stats on the table. You have to be careful because a couple of numbers clearly only give you part of the story, but if I'm on the button and a player in CO with a PFR of 20 open-raises I'll 3-bet isolate with a broad range, whereas if a player in MP with PFR=2 open-raises I'm only playing premiums.
Which is why I use a HUD to overlay the stats on the table. You have to be careful because a couple of numbers clearly only give you part of the story, but if I'm on the button and a player in CO with a PFR of 20 open-raises I'll 3-bet isolate with a broad range, whereas if a player in MP with PFR=2 open-raises I'm only playing premiums.
I do have poker tracker...but its so much information that I dont think im usually wisely. I tried it with sng's but think I dont know how to use the information correctly. Same with cash. I know more information will always be wise, but knowing who to use it to advantage is my main issue.
One place to start might be the PT forums or places like 2+2. Ironically you tend to run into the same problem in the sense that instead of too much data you get too many opinions.
One place to start might be the PT forums or places like 2+2. Ironically you tend to run into the same problem in the sense that instead of too much data you get too many opinions.
Yoda'S BRAIN ON overload.....Can we find the easy way out again??
wot u using, PTO, PT2 or PT3?
wot u using, PTO, PT2 or PT3?
PT3......I really havent used it much since Ive had it
I'd suggest screwing around with it. It has its own HUD. VPIP/PFR of you and others is the place to start
wot u using, PTO, PT2 or PT3?
i have no idea about 1 or 2,,,i currently have PT3
yah it's de luxe and delightful. get it working with the built in HUD and shoot fish in a barrel.
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