TOTAL BSSSSSSSS!!!

[Misty]

WHO'S SAYING I SHOULDN'T HAVE SHOVED HERE? WHO WHO WHO ...SPEAK UP, CUS IF I PLAYED IT WRONG I WANNA KICK MYSELF RIGHT NOW!!! dammit...(forget I typed that ...but dammittttt!!!!)

PokerStars Game #40610064182: Tournament #247233891, $2.00+$0.20 USD Omaha Hi/Lo Pot Limit - Level V (75/150) - 2010/03/03 13:51:05 ET
Table '247233891 19' 9-max Seat #6 is the button
Seat 1: aynali (3840 in chips)
Seat 2: Cynilo (7189 in chips)
Seat 3: GoCry2Mommie (2035 in chips)
Seat 4: Mi§T¥ ߣuë (5457 in chips)
Seat 5: stephan66 (6528 in chips)
Seat 6: oma29 (2827 in chips)
Seat 7: hokiejeff (1346 in chips)
hokiejeff: posts small blind 75
aynali: posts big blind 150
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Mi§T¥ ߣuë [Kh 2c Ks 5h]
noVoID1973 is connected
Cynilo: folds
GoCry2Mommie: folds
Mi§T¥ ߣuë: calls 150
stephan66: calls 150
oma29: folds
hokiejeff: raises 150 to 300
aynali: calls 150
Mi§T¥ ߣuë: calls 150
stephan66: calls 150
*** FLOP *** [3c 6h Kd]
hokiejeff: bets 1046 and is all-in
aynali: calls 1046
Mi§T¥ ߣuë: raises 4111 to 5157 and is all-in
stephan66: folds
aynali: calls 2494 and is all-in
Uncalled bet (1617) returned to Mi§T¥ ߣuë
*** TURN *** [3c 6h Kd] [9h]
*** RIVER *** [3c 6h Kd 9h] [Jh]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
aynali: shows [2h Ah 3d Qs] (HI: a flush, Ace high)
Mi§T¥ ߣuë: shows [Kh 2c Ks 5h] (HI: a flush, King high)
aynali collected 4988 from side pot
hokiejeff: shows [6c Ts Ad 2d] (HI: a pair of Sixes)
aynali collected 4338 from main pot
No low hand qualified
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 9326 Main pot 4338. Side pot 4988. | Rake 0
Board [3c 6h Kd 9h Jh]


EFF U POkerSTARS!!!! :mad: :mad: :mad:

[Walnut Dog]

this is not that uncommon in omaha. in my opinion, a set is a rather weak hand after the flop, especially with 7 people in the hand still. i would assume a str8 or flush would be made, and would have just called and hoped to make my boat or quads... but then again, if no runner runner heart you would have won.... :(

[Misty]

this is not that uncommon in omaha. in my opinion, a set is a rather weak hand after the flop, especially with 7 people in the hand still. i would assume a str8 or flush would be made, and would have just called and hoped to make my boat or quads... but then again, if no runner runner heart you would have won.... :(


*** FLOP *** [3c 6h Kd]
hokiejeff: bets 1046 and is all-in
aynali: calls 1046
Mi§T¥ ߣuë: raises 4111 to 5157 and is all-in
stephan66: folds
aynali: calls 2494 and is all-in
Uncalled bet (1617) returned to Mi§T¥ ߣuë
*** TURN *** [3c 6h Kd] [9h]
*** RIVER *** [3c 6h Kd 9h] [Jh]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
aynali: shows [2h Ah 3d Qs] (HI: a flush, Ace high)
Mi§T¥ ߣuë: shows [Kh 2c Ks 5h] (HI: a flush, King high)

Well...I don't see 7 players after flop, I only see 3players + ME...

Hokiejeff (1 player) ...went all in with 1046 chips, I tried to isolate and also I had lots of outs...stephan66 folded ....and only 1 player called me which he was just chasing low cus the flopped board didn't even have a flush draw ...

the guy in my opinion was simply chasing a low hand and ended up with the high hand (sucking out)

As for the straight flush or straight draws....that would be MY HAND!! I had all the right cards and all the best outs! (am I dreaming this or don't u see it?)

Post - Flop I had - a set KKK , so....gives me a possible Quad, possible boat, possible straight, possible low and on Turn I had a possible flush...

isn't that more outs than aynali's hand? Or am I doing this wrong?

Post Flop <<<
Quad = 1 out

Boat = 12 outs (actually I should remove the 6 from turn and river, so that leaves me with only 6 outs pf)

Straight = 4 outs

Turn >>
Flush = 12 outs (or do I count it since I didn't get the flush...but that's after the fact I think I have to count my outs this way...or no? not sure...ummm)

edit: even forgot to add the low hand outs! but u can see from above, (if I'm even doing it correctly) that I still had way more outs than the other player who simply sucked out on me!! grrr.

but anyway...I had more outs than the other player, that I'm certain of. I mean the game isn't about chasing just the low hand, it's about having both a good low and high hand and I think I had both possibilities, whereas he didnt' !

[Misty]

PokerStars Tournament #247233891, Pot Limit Omaha Hi/Lo
Buy-In: $2.00/$0.20 USD
309 players
Total Prize Pool: $618.00 USD
Tournament started 2010/03/03 12:30:00 ET


Dear Mi§T¥ ߣuë,

You finished the tournament in 15th place. A USD 7.41 award has been credited to your Real Money account.

You earned 61.37 tournament leader points in this tournament. For information about our tournament leader board, see our web site at http://www.pokerstars.com/poker/tournaments/leader-board/


Congratulations!

Thank you for participating.

[Walnut Dog]

(oops on the 3 others; not 7... i dont read these things much... they confuse me)

i am not gonna do the math but i reckon you did have more outs. however, that is ex post facto. even i had king flush available, i would be worried about an ace high flush (in omaha only) only point i was tryign to make was that i might not have pushed all in (i find it hard to push out omaha hi low players in low limit, esp with low hand waiting).

tonight i am just gonna fold till the blinds get real big and then hope for some donkey luck!

i like to see all the cards in om hi low (but even if you waited, the other person would go all in on river and the same result would have happened).

so i guess in the end i agree with you : f pokerstars! and f omaha! and f hold em!

[Misty]

(oops on the 3 others; not 7... i dont read these things much... they confuse me)

i am not gonna do the math but i reckon you did have more outs. however, that is ex post facto. even i had king flush available, i would be worried about an ace high flush (in omaha only) only point i was tryign to make was that i might not have pushed all in (i find it hard to push out omaha hi low players in low limit, esp with low hand waiting).

tonight i am just gonna fold till the blinds get real big and then hope for some donkey luck!

i like to see all the cards in om hi low (but even if you waited, the other person would go all in on river and the same result would have happened).

so i guess in the end i agree with you : f pokerstars! and f omaha! and f hold em!

yep agreed...they confuse me too!

I know what ur saying, trust me...I'm usually the kind of player that will wait till all the cards out to shove, but I honestly thought I was good enough to win that hand.


Altho...I think this is the right way to do it, isolate & conquer or is that the game of Risk? :laugh:

[Melina 07]

Heres my opinion on the hand. You called a all in with trips no low and 2 cards to come. to me thats a crap shoot and well crap. IF you cant chase cheap fold period almost nutz is rarely good enough in h/l. A str8 a flush a boat beats your trips and those are common hands in plo8 and your low was far from good enough I woulda folded the push and saved chips for a better position

[Misty]

Heres my opinion on the hand. You called a all in with trips no low and 2 cards to come. to me thats a crap shoot and well crap. IF you cant chase cheap fold period almost nutz is rarely good enough in h/l. A str8 a flush a boat beats your trips and those are common hands in plo8 and your low was far from good enough I woulda folded the push and saved chips for a better position


I TOTALLY DISAGREE with you...totally!

I didn't call an ALL IN PREFLOP, it was post flop! So your crap shoot theory is just what you said...crap. (if you still don't think so......check out any odds calculator...I did and I'm now happy with the results I received from it).

However...if you don't have an odds calculator handy here's the scoop on my hand vs the other player POST FLOP! :


MY HAND (POST FLOP):

SCOOP: 40.98%
H/L win: 93.66%
H/L TIE: 1.46%
LOW WIN: 13.17%
LO TIE: 1.10%

OPPONENT'S HAND:

SCOOP: 4.51%
HL WIN: 4.88%
HL TIE: 1.46%
LO WIN: 54.88%
LO TIE: 1.10%

**************************

Now let's study odds on the TURN CARD! :

MY HAND:

SCOOP: 55.00 %
HL WIN: 85.00 %
HL TIE: 0%
LO WIN: 7.50 %
LO TIE: 0

OPPONENT'S HAND:

SCOOP: 15 %
HLWIN:15%
HLTIE: 0%
LO WIN: 37.5 %
LO TIE: 0%

THERE U HAVE IT, MEL...MY SHOVE WAS NOT CRAP NOR WAS MY HAND.....tyvm. As you can clearly see by those percentages, I was never behind...he sucked out...all he had going for him was a higher LOW HAND percentage.




edit: ok, I take it back...maybe my shove was a little overboard (still wouldn't call it crap tho...sighs) but with the percentages given above you have to realize, my hand was pretty darn good to raise with (and this is in comparison to what my opponent's hand was, mel....I'm not comparing it to anything else other than what the board showed on flop and what my opponent was holding)

[Misty]

Heres my opinion on the hand. You called a all in with trips no low and 2 cards to come. to me thats a crap shoot and well crap. IF you cant chase cheap fold period almost nutz is rarely good enough in h/l. A str8 a flush a boat beats your trips and those are common hands in plo8 and your low was far from good enough I woulda folded the push and saved chips for a better position


I wasn't chasing mel, my hand was already made! And it was a great hand...with many outs. More outs than the other guy...dont' you see it?


umm...mel? MY HAND had all those draws!!!! I had the possible str8, low or boat draws!!!

Why can't anyone see my cards were good here? :sad:

[Melina 07]

it wasnt made yet misty all you had made was trips(easy to beat) and a bad low draw. sure you had all those draws a str8 draw a flush draw(not nutz) a made hand is the nutz with no cards that can beat you you had possibility of not only losing half the pot but the whole thing and you did. Sorry luv ya but no way i call that all in with just trips a few ok draws and a crappy low a blind or 2 is max id call

ps didnt call your hand crap called the race a crap shoot I know it was on the flop I liked the preflop call

[Misty]

it wasnt made yet misty all you had made was trips(easy to beat) and a bad low draw. sure you had all those draws a str8 draw a flush draw(not nutz) a made hand is the nutz with no cards that can beat you you had possibility of not only losing half the pot but the whole thing and you did. Sorry luv ya but no way i call that all in with just trips a few ok draws and a crappy low a blind or 2 is max id call

ps didnt call your hand crap called the race a crap shoot I know it was on the flop I liked the preflop call


but but but....

sighs.


Ok, let's agree to disagree here...cus honestly I disagree, still. We still friends? :lol: hugssssssssss !!

[Adaon]

While not an expert on omaha hi lo, I can't say I would have played that hand in the first place. Unless you hit the king on the flop it's a tough hand to play (unless an ace hits then you could safely fold). Double suited, or better low cards would improve it by a lot but still would warrant cautious play unless on the button.

But that said, on the flop the best case to be made for not shoving is to get value out of your hand, the only way shoving works for you is against another set, otherwise you are pricing out bad hands that would call and make you money in the long term.

[Kat]

While not an expert on omaha hi lo, I can't say I would have played that hand in the first place. Unless you hit the king on the flop it's a tough hand to play (unless an ace hits then you could safely fold). Double suited, or better low cards would improve it by a lot but still would warrant cautious play unless on the button.

But that said, on the flop the best case to be made for not shoving is to get value out of your hand, the only way shoving works for you is against another set, otherwise you are pricing out bad hands that would call and make you money in the long term.

The purpose of shoving is to either force out the low draws or charge them to chase 1/2 the pot.

[Misty]

The purpose of shoving is to either force out the low draws or charge them to chase 1/2 the pot.


Exactly what my goal was! I mean if he's gonna chase his low hand...isn't it justified to make him pay for it? I would think this is +EV...but with all the negative feedback I've been getting on this hand, it's really confusing to know what to think.

I really still like how I played this hand. It only cost me 300 to see the flop and then post flop I really liked how I played it.

One player had an all in of 1k or something and the other player (my opponent) called that 1k and seeing as I had a little over 5k, what's the point of raising? Raising to what?...to keep 2k in my stack? Not worth it imo...so I shoved. What happened to making ur opponent pay to chase?

My hand was the best, when money went all in...that's how I look at it.


As for Kat...tyty (nice to get some good solid, positive feedback) :love:

[apaintn]

In this instance, i think that both plays were proper.
If you look at the 2 opponents hand, were they wrong to get in?, this is a Hi-Lo game after all.

The 2 players that came in with A2 had many ways to win a portion of the pot.

Player 'aynali' needed 4578(x4)=16 outs to hit the low
Player 'hokiejeff' needed 4578(x4)=16 outs to hit the low

I think i would be going for half and if the 45 hit the low would be freerolling to high to bust any set, and if the 3 or 6 came eithe player had a shot at quads.

Next time if you decide to play KK25, one suit, play it carefully so you wont be upset if you lose this silly omaha starting hand, even if you hit the set. GL

[northerngent]

It is almost impossible to calculate outs in Omaha and I have actually had this arguement before with a friend of mine....My arguement does not so much apply to this hand because there are only 7 people sitting at the table.

However, if there were 9 people sitting at the table 9X4 is 36 leaving only 16 cards left in the deck. After the flop comes, you are down to only 13 cards left in the deck, so the most outs you can possibly have is 13 and that is only if every last card helps you and that your outs are not taking by other people. You have to assume that other players have your outs as well.

You may have 18 outs, lets say, but that is statistically impossible at a 9 player table.

So here it is 7 x4 which is 28, and after the flop is 31 cards in play, leaving 21, so your outs can not possibly be more than 21, i am not saying that you said that, just applying my theory lol...

[Kat]

you might as well argue that if you have more outs than the # cards in the stub that any card that comes off is an out thus you're 100% likely to make your draw.

[PokerRef]

Play in low buy-in MTTs and you get those kind of calls. By you going all in after the flop without the nuts, you give the drawing player little choice and in a $2 MTT most will call and hope for the best. If you on the other hand try to keep the pot low until you see the turn and river card and then determine if you have the winning hand and bet accordingly. I know your thinking I'm nuts to think that way but sometimes losing less and staying alive is the better alternative.

[northerngent]

I hear what you are saying and of course that would be a great way to look at it, but it is also a dangerous way to look at it lol

[PARocket630]

No comment on the hand I just love the passion. Thats why we play the game.

[amadare000]

Here's a question that hasn't been posed yet: Why are you even in this hand to begin with?? Middle position, with no A and a shitty low draw. I'm folding that preflop. KK25 is mediocre at best, as you have to have a near perfect flop. A23Q & A26T, those are decent starting hands, both with suited Aces.

Like I said, I'm not even playing this hand and it's exactly the fish hand I hope to play against at this level with my A wheel wheel hand. Profitable PLO8/NLO8 player according to OPR.

Bobby

edit: sorry I missed page two completely. This was questioned already and nobody responded. Adaon may not be an expert omaha 8 player as he stated (and neither am I), but he got it right when he said he's not playing this hand preflop.

[CaliNaughti]

I agree totally with what Adaon says, like you said, he may not be an expert at Oamah H/L but he does know his poker. It isnt a good starting hand. The minute an A hits that flop even your KK is usually no good.

I also think that members on the forum are learning how to play and play alot different hands than what regular Omaha players play. I can win in a SNG playing Omaha but its alot harder to win playing in our forum. You have to be willing to expect the unexpected in playing here.

[Kat]

I wouldn't play the hand here either, but it actually has some merit in plo8 (it's unplayable in limit). In fact one of the best plo8 players in the world, Scott Clements, plays these kinds of hands all the time. But he can open his range because he can outplay people post flop.

The crucial thing to understand about plo8 compared to limit is that the big bet nature of the game means you can actually blow people off hands. So when an A comes off and you hold something like KK25 you don't need to make the nut low to win the low half, and when you have position on the field you can take down pots just through picking up two-way non-nut draws. Also an A flopping will counterfeit "normal" low hands making stealing that much easier.

But Cali makes an important point in this regard. Because many players here are relatively inexperienced O8 players they tend to play "funny" hands and the pots tend to be massively multiway as a result. So hands like KK52 become even more marginal than usual, because with so many players in the hand who are not super good at folding you're going to need to make the nuts in one direction, and KK52 needs miracle boards to make the nuts.

[PokerRef]

What I have been finding on the forum is when you sit down at the full table your not wondering who the one donk is at the table, your wondering who the 5 donks at the table are.