Pokerstars Players Terms of Service Agreement

[Jersey]

After watching the end of the game and reading the results posted from Sundays HoldemFreaks Body Bag Game. It is clear that most players do not know or have even read the Terms of Service for Pokerstars, that they have agreed to when they signed up for their account. For everyone who doesn’t know where to find it they can go to the following link. Poker Stars - Online Poker Site Terms of Service (http://www.pokerstars.com/poker/room/tos/)
I have copied a portion of the rules posted on the TOS

5.8 CHIP-DUMPING. Chip-dumping occurs when any User intentionally loses a hand in order to deliberately transfer his chips to another User. Any User who chip-dumps or attempts to chip-dump with any other User while using the Service may be permanently banned from using the Service and their account may be terminated immediately. In such circumstances PokerStars will be under no obligation to refund to you any monies that may be in your PokerStars account at such time.

What happened at the end of the game, where Booty_$haker and wisak7 were folding to each other is clearly a violation of the TOS. It is considered chip dumping to Pokerstars and they could of lost their accounts for doing that.

I also feel that it was wrong, that they decided to do a chip chop for a league game, where points are being awarded to 1st and 2nd place, etc. Where Booty_$haker said, "I get 1st" then after CalifNaughti said as an observer "They can't chop because of the points its a league match". Booty_$haker said, "w/e cali"
Booty_$haker said, "idgaf" My personal opinion is the points for this game should not be awarded to the players since there wasn’t a clear winner decided.

For the players who don't know what a Chip Chop is. There is a procedure that is done and technically only support can do a Chip Chop.

A Chip Chop is when all players left on the table agree to split the remaining prize pool. The procedure is simply. All players sit out on the table. They then proceed to email support and wait for the host to show up from support. Once support (host) shows up they will pause the tournament. Payouts will be discussed and all players will agree or disagree to the amounts. After they agree or disagree the tournament is then resumed and the players will "PLAY IT OUT" for 1st, 2nd, & 3rd place etc. They will never raise then reraise then fold to one player. Because it is against the rules to chip dump to a certain player.

Any how, I feel that all players should read over the "Terms of Service" and make themselves familiar with all the rules there. It isn't worth losing your account over something that is clearly written in stone. It helps you and all the rest of the players on the site and helps keep integrity to the game. I welcome your comments and I hope that this will help you.

[Holdem Freak]

After watching the end of the game and reading the results posted from Sundays HoldemFreaks Body Bag Game. It is clear that most players do not know or have even read the Terms of Service for Pokerstars, that they have agreed to when they signed up for their account. For everyone who doesn’t know where to find it they can go to the following link. Poker Stars - Online Poker Site Terms of Service (http://www.pokerstars.com/poker/room/tos/)
I have copied a portion of the rules posted on the TOS

5.8 CHIP-DUMPING. Chip-dumping occurs when any User intentionally loses a hand in order to deliberately transfer his chips to another User. Any User who chip-dumps or attempts to chip-dump with any other User while using the Service may be permanently banned from using the Service and their account may be terminated immediately. In such circumstances PokerStars will be under no obligation to refund to you any monies that may be in your PokerStars account at such time.

What happened at the end of the game, where Booty_$haker and wisak7 were folding to each other is clearly a violation of the TOS. It is considered chip dumping to Pokerstars and they could of lost their accounts for doing that.

I also feel that it was wrong, that they decided to do a chip chop for a league game, where points are being awarded to 1st and 2nd place, etc. Where Booty_$haker said, "I get 1st" then after CalifNaughti said as an observer "They can't chop because of the points its a league match". Booty_$haker said, "w/e cali"
Booty_$haker said, "idgaf" My personal opinion is the points for this game should not be awarded to the players since there wasn’t a clear winner decided.

For the players who don't know what a Chip Chop is. There is a procedure that is done and technically only support can do a Chip Chop.

A Chip Chop is when all players left on the table agree to split the remaining prize pool. The procedure is simply. All players sit out on the table. They then proceed to email support and wait for the host to show up from support. Once support (host) shows up they will pause the tournament. Payouts will be discussed and all players will agree or disagree to the amounts. After they agree or disagree the tournament is then resumed and the players will "PLAY IT OUT" for 1st, 2nd, & 3rd place etc. They will never raise then reraise then fold to one player. Because it is against the rules to chip dump to a certain player.

Any how, I feel that all players should read over the "Terms of Service" and make themselves familiar with all the rules there. It isn't worth losing your account over something that is clearly written in stone. It helps you and all the rest of the players on the site and helps keep integrity to the game. I welcome your comments and I hope that this will help you.


Jersey that is some strong accusations you are making there. Having known wisak7 for a few years and also playing against wisak7 for a few years now I can honestly say I know there is no chip dumping going on. I also will say that even though I do not know Booty as well or for as long I highly doubt that was going on.

True chip dumping is where one person dumps all of their chips knowing full well they will lose the hand. But yet in another breath you say they agree to a chip chop. So in all actuality there was no violation. What you had was 2 strong players playing each other and knowing it could go on for hours decided to chop. As for the points I am not making that call as I do not handle the points at all that is Sick Fish's department.

In closing I want to leave you with this tid bit. What may appear to have been chip dumping was obviously 2 good players playing some tight poker.

[Booty]

I don't know who you think you are for accusing of chip dumping but you have that all wrong and I dont appreciate the accusations. Your just pissed off bc I played my K 3 and won. So take you fricken comments somewhere else.

[PokerRef]

I think Jerseys post is informational and not accusatory in any way. It is (the TERMS OF SERVICE) something that needs to made aware of by all members.

As for the chop between Booty and wisak, I have no problem with it, as long as the points for the leaderboard are also calculated evenly. If this had a money award for winning the monthly TLB, then a chop should never be done, but in this case there is no money award for any position a member finishes in.

In this case the players were heads up, so I can't see how this could be construed as "chip dumping" . They just wanted to get the game over with and realized it could go on for a long time and it was getting late so they made an agreement. I too know Wisak and he would never knowingly violate any PS or Forum policy.

Thanks for bringing the TOS to our attention. Now lets move on.

[wisak7]

I've already addressed this issue in another thread so I'll try not to regurgitate too much of the same information in this thread.

First of all I want to thank Chris and Ref for their support. It means a lot to me. I want the next statement to be as clear as possible. At no point during the tournament, before the chop deal was made between Booty and me, did I intentionally fold any hand to Booty in order for Booty to get more chips. I have not done that with any player before, and I won't do it in the future. I believe that Jersey is not accusing us of cheating, but rather stating that the way I folded my hands to Booty at the end of the game, after the chop was done, is technically chip dumping in the strictest sense of the terms of service of Poker Stars. I would contend that this situation is different because no other players were affected by my actions.

I have offered to forfeit the points I earned last night as well as refund any bounties and or prize money I earned last night in hopes to demonstrate my remorse for what this has turned into. If any of the other 28 players besides Booty and me that played last night think they have been wronged, I will pro-rate the $42.50 that I earned after my entry fee is taken into consideration and I will refund them $1.52. Also, If any of the people who paid me their bounty feel they have been wronged I will gladly refund their $1 bounty. If anyone wants to take me up on this offer reply to this post and I will make the transfer.

One thing I do disagree with Jersey on is the fact that Booty and I should not be rewarded any points. So even though we didn't cheat anyone and we decided to chop after heads up play was determined, we shouldn't get any points for our efforts? Say this out loud: "Two players played really good poker and outlasted 28 other players and out of good sportsmanship decided to split first and second place money and as a result shouldn't get any points." Does that make sense? If we chopped the prize money, wouldn't it be just as logical to split the points that first and second would bring? In the long run the points won't be an issue for me because with my schedule I'm lucky if I can play 5 league games a month. My intent to play Hold'em Freak games is to play a quality game of poker, and interact with some really great people and to take a break from donkey land poker that Poker Stars has become.

My intent with addressing this issue sooner rathe than later was to try and have an understanding on both sides of the issue and by discussing it we can avoid a similar instance in the future. I would also suggest implementing a chopping policy that would clearly define A)If it is allowed. (Which I don't know how you can prevent it from happening if two players mutually agree on a payout) B) What the impact on the points will be if a chop is made. i.e... if it is a 50/50 chop between two players the points chop between first and second place points is 50/50. C) If any chops are allowed, they must go through Poker Stars support. These are all ideas, take them for what they are worth.

Lastly, I want to apologize to any Hold'em Freaks member that I upset because of my actions. I will admit that when I heard the initial uproar over mine and Booty's decision to chop I was upset. Cali, I took a lot of my frustrations out on you and that was wrong. I hope you can forgive me. In closing I truly want the forum to take this as a lesson so that we can put this behind us and move forward. I hope that no one will make any rash decisions that they are gong to regret. Through communication and understanding we can take this lemon and make lemonade.

If anyone has any questions or comments for me feel free to contact me at wisak7@yahoo.com I am more than willing to take my "lumps" for this.

[CaliNaughti]

I too have known Wisak for 5-6 years and in no way shape or form would I ever think he was doing anything wrong. Ive seen him chop HU many many times with no problems. He isa very respectable gentlman that would never do anything intentionally wrong and I love playing poker with him.

I would also like to say that I dont see jersey accusing anyone of anything here in his thread. What I do see is someone trying to educate us all on the agreement that we all signed when we became members of PokerStars and have forgotton. Remember..PS is in the buisness of making money not losing money and if they can find a reason to take your accounts and keep your money they will. All jersey is doing is letting us know the rules and that the big eye in the sky is watching you play and you ave to watch your P's and Q's. I dont like the fact that people on our forum report people, but look how many times Booty has lost her chat..Peppar got reported and cant play yet..it happens, jersey is just reminding us is all.

While I played on a different forum I played in a league game where money and points were involved, I did what Wisak did and asked for a chop not knowing any better. The other player agreed and we did the exact same thing. The next day I recieved a PM from the owner of the forum telling me I upset the league game points by doing this and they were very upset. I was also shown the exact same thing here that jersey showed us from teh other forum, PS TOS agreement. Because of that experiance I have learned to follow the rules, and to not trust a whole lot of people for fear of being reported. Live and learn.

Again, I'd like to say that jersey never once accused anyone of anything, read his opening paragraph again. "After watching the end of the game and reading the results posted from Sundays HoldemFreaks Body Bag Game. It is clear that most players do not know or have even read the Terms of Service for Pokerstars, that they have agreed to when they signed up for their account. For everyone who doesn’t know where to find it they can go to the following link. Poker Stars - Online Poker Site Terms of Service
I have copied a portion of the rules posted on the TOS " He is just reminding us all of the TOS. Im glad he is too. Sometimes we all need a lil reminding.

Happy poker playing today! And may the poker Gods smile upon you!

[Holdem Freak]

I am not one (at least anymore) to keep things like this going but... It is my feeling that Jersey did hold some form of grudge or in some way was accusing the two of chip dumping. He purposely mentioned their names and brought for the info about chip dumping. Now if it was not intended to be directed towards them then there was no need for the mention of the players and it could have been brought up a better way in my honest opinion. It is also my opinion that if there were the feeling that something was going on it should have been brought up to an admin in a pm or to the individuals themselves. On that note, and this is something that I am not fond of, I am going to close this post as everything that has been mentioned has been. If anyone cares to add to this with useful info may contact an admin and they will add in the post for that person. Otherwise please do it through pm's. We are working hard at keeping this place a safe and fun place to come.

As Ref said "Let's Move On"

[Sick Fish]

First I want to apologize for taking so long to get to this issue. I've been off of the forum for a few days and I', reading about this for the first time.

I'm not going to debate whether or not any players were "chip dumping" as I have no control over how anyone decides to play their game(s). I will however address the points since that's something that I take care of and are relevant to HoldemFreaks.com. The points system we have in place calculates points based on the total amount of participants and the payouts. If two players finish in the same position then they will split the position points evenly. As for the payout points, these players chose to chop and were paid the same so their payout points will be split evenly as well.

If anyone has any questions or comments please feel free to post them. The points system was set up for everyone's enjoyment of the competition during HoldemFreaks games and we want it to stay that way. We're happy to have conversations about any issue that may arise.

Thanks. :)